Strikeout threw out? Strikethrough strikes out, throughout?

#15

With CSS normally, if it’s presentational information only. In HTML5 they have been updated with semantic meaning, but it’s misleading coming from HTML4. This article explains the new meanings of <b> and <i>.

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#16

argh yea I see what you mean in terms of <b> and <i>.

Well at least for <s> it seems rather straightforward.
It represents “Mark up text that is no longer correct” .

Which does include ‘ironic usage’, e.g. I am keeping some slaves interns in the office.
Which works, as long as you know it’s context.

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#17

<del> would commonly be used to markup text that is no longer correct (otherwise why edit it out?). It might be removed for other reasons as well of course. Practically, the meanings of <del> and <s> seem close enough not to warrant a separate tag.

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#18

I think on closer reading, there is a distinct difference. The <del> tag is specifically a ‘reviewing’ tag, which means it is a tag that along with <ins> is for addition and subtraction of a content under review. This is much different than <s> which is for marking strikethrough of text, (rather than striking out), and thus is for public consumption. Refer to Reviewing Markups for more information.

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#19

<del> appears to encompass the meaning of <s> since it can be publicly presented as well. We need some examples of where <s> might be used but where <del> would be inappropriate. If there are no examples, perhaps <s> is not needed in Markdown.

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#20

well strike though marks does not always mean ‘deleting’.

It’s sometimes used as an ironic notion. E.g. CAT: “I seriously love my slave human”

Also I’ll show <del> as a red box with --- on each side. While for <s> I would show it as a standard strikethought. (Which shows that presentation between the two tags is not always treated the same)

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Reviewing Markups
#21

The original intent was to give a specification of core Markdown elements. Certainly extensions like strikethrough can be considered later, but I’d like to get the core settled first.

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#22

That sounds like a relatively logical approach, professor. I just thought I’d get this one up on the board: it and other extensions can be resolved as future contingents.

:wink:

Thanks!


Also, I’d point out that the discussion above regarding <s> vs. <del> is exactly why I think its important to be explicit about targeting HTML5.

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#23

Aye, hence I’ve created two threads to cover both the “presentational” <s> and the editorial review/diff style of tags like <del>.

##Strike Through:

Via --strike through--

Is covered in this thread

Usually rendered purely as a strike through . So semantically doesn’t always mean incorrect information, it can mean an ironic statement.

##Strike Out:

Via >>~~ strikeout ~~<<

Is covered in this thread

<del> might be rendered in some site as [ --- striked out --- ]
(As for <ins> it might looks like [ +++ insert +++ ] via >>++ insert ++<<)

Edit: modified >>-- strike through --<< to -- strike through --. And added to strikeout

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#24

There is no reason srikethrough shouldn’t be a core feature of markdown. There is nothing to discuss. Every markdown implementation that implements srikethrough, does it the same way. When (not if) you add srikethrough to the standard, you are going to specify that two tildes get parsed into a <del>; anything else would be unwise.

So:

  • there is minimal extra cost involved in adding srikethrough to the standard now.
  • by delaying to add it, you gain nothing.
  • by adding it you would make a lot of people happy.
  • what exactly is your problem here?
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#25

Tone down the rhetoric please; see http://talk.commonmark.org/faq

The initial goal of CommonMark is to stabilize the existing Markdown spec, not adding everyone’s pet extensions.

Over time, once the much more important work of stabilizing the spec and having a great set of tests for the spec is complete, we will look at extensions and additions. But that is not the priority over the next immediate 6 months.

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Tables in pure Markdown
What could a "spoiler tag" extension look like?
#26

If you need to support strikethrough right now, no one is stopping you from implementing it (via the ~~ syntax which GitHub uses, or via plain HTML). You may need to convert some Markdown documents later if a different syntax is chosen, although this seems unlikely.

I would much rather see the CommonMark core remaining small. App writers then have a choice as to which additional features they will support. They can clearly inform users of which extensions are supported.

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#27

That was the toned down version :p

I just don’t see strikethrough as ‘big’ or controversial enough to omit from the core standard. There is already a de facto standard for it, and lots of existing markdown that uses it. It seems as if there is a feeling that not adding something to the spec is always easier than adding it, but what I’m trying to say is that sometimes poor decisions made early on can cost a lot more further along in the project’s lifetime.

As a user, when I google for ‘markdown strikethrough’ and find something that seems to suggest that two tildes will delete text, then try to use it and it fails, it really frustrates me. I am suggesting that you should try to channel that kind of antipathy towards specific markdown implementations for failing to conform to the spec, rather than towards CommonMark for failing to conform to people’s expectations.

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#28

There’s a line drawing problem. If strikethrough is added to the core, why not cite, mark, spoilers, tables, etc as well? The line has to be drawn somewhere, and it appears to have been drawn at “features found in John Gruber’s Markdown” (where fenced code blocks are counted as the same type of feature as whitespace codeblocks). A lot of work has already gone into working out a solid spec for just these features. It would take even more time if everyone’s favourite feature was also included.

That is a decision of the app developer, not the spec writer. Even for features included the core, the developer may still choose to exclude them. For example, as a developer I sometimes disallow images and headings because I want to ensure that the writer only uses a minimal set of tags. If you’re frustrated, you should ask the app developer to enable your desired feature.

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#29

I think they should be decided on a case by case basis. For each of the other extensions you mentioned there are real pros and cons to consider, and their absence from an implementation or core spec is understandable. Meanwhile, the only argument I have seen against strikethrough is that John Gruber didn’t like it.

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#30

The main argument for strikethrough appears to be that people do like/want to use it. Just as people like other features (tables in particular) and want those features included in the core. It’s all quite subjective and varies based on the writer’s needs.

At least by drawing the line at the features in Gruber’s spec we have a line.

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#31

Strikethrough already has a widely adopted standard format. The reason that double tilde strikethrough should be in the standard is because it already is standard, and the point of having a standard is to specify the standards that are standard.

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#32

note again that I proposed that strikethrough is --strike through-- and strikeout is >>~~ strikeout ~~<< ( uses >><< to safely allow for striking out trailing spaces.)

This is since they have distinct semantic meaning. Strikeout is more of a critic’s markup Reviewing Markups


Since core spec is not going to be updated in a while. An unofficial extention spec might be handy in http://www.reddit.com/r/LightWeightMarkup/wiki/commonmark/unofficialextensions to keep everyone in the same page.

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#33

[quote=“Buddy, post:31, topic:820”]
The reason that double tilde strikethrough should be in the standard is because it already is standard, and the point of having a standard is to specify the standards that are standard.[/quote]

@codinghorror and @jgm have already stated that the intent of this particular standard is to give a specification of core Markdown elements. Not all standards need to codify every element in wide use. In this case, that’s what the extensions will be for.

In practical terms (for writers), is there a difference whether a feature in part of the core or an extension? App developers will either implement support for an element or they won’t. This is independent from whether the element is part of the core or if it is part of an extension. So long as the element is included (one way or another) in CommonMark is there a problem?

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#34

I’m looking at the W3C HTML5 spec now and there’s no mention of either strikethrough or strikeout by those terms.

That there’s a distinction between <s> and <del> is a good observation though.

There is a wide use of ~~ but it is unclear whether this should be used for <s> or <del>. GitHub calls the use of ~~ strikethrough, but the HTML element generated by GitHub Flavored Markdown is <del>. The <s> element may be more suitable for their intent as it “represents contents that are no longer accurate or no longer relevant.” whereas <del> “represents a removal from the document.”. But the GFM spec is not clear what the indented use of “strikethrough” is.

What other flavours include the ~~ syntax? I couldn’t find it in Markdown Extra. Pandoc calls it “Strikeout” and generates the <del> element. iA Writer converts ~~ to <del> as well. MultiMarkdown does not include ~~ but includes {~~text~~} syntax for deletion known as “critic markup”.

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